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And here is Part 2:
Commentary on Wayne’s analysis of Ben Hogan’s clubshaft shallowing move – Part 2
Wayne,
You made the following comment in a previous e-mail message-: “You will note that most great ball strikers shallow the shaft early in transition and for a short period of time (during the period between 3.8 and 4.5) and then complete the forward swing to impact by gradually steepening the shaft.”
I would agree that many PGA tour golfers shallow the clubshaft early in the transition between P4 and P5, but I do not believe that they then need to gradually steepen the clubshaft between P5 and P5.5 in order to successfully complete the forward swing. The reason why I believe that it is not necessary is because I do not believe that the clubshaft shallowing action necessarily produces an off-plane motion that requires correction. In other words, I believe that it is easily possible to shallow the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5 while remaining continuously on-plane. I believe that this pattern is used by many PGA tour golfers – like Adam Scott, Justin Rose, Henrik Stenson, Gary Woodland, Rory McIlroy, Stuart Appleby, and Ben Hogan (in his later career).
Consider this series of capture images of Ben Hogan’s early-mid downswing.
Image 1 is at the P4 position. Note that he has a much shortened backswing action so that his clubshaft never gets to parallel, and it is pointing well left of the target. I also believe that he is likely on-plane and that an imginary line drawn from the butt end of the club is pointing at the ball-target line.
I believe that he is i) shallowing his clubshaft relative to his hand arc path all the way between P4 (image 1) and P5.5 (image 5) while ii) remaining continuously on-plane. I believe that in this particular swing action, that he doesn’t need any clubshaft-steepening move (which requires left forearm supination) between P5 and P5.5 because he is continuously on-plane, and I believe that his left forearm is maximally pronated at P5.5.
Here is another example of Ben Hogan being continuously on-plane during his early-mid downswing while continuously shallowing the clubshaft (relative to his hand arc path).
Image 1 is at P5 and image 2 is at P5.5.
Note how he has shallowed his clubshaft relative to his hand arc path during both his early downswing and also during his mid-downswing, while remaining continuously on-plane. I can discern no clubshaft-steepening phase between P5 and P5.5 because he was never off-plane (where an imaginary line drawn from the butt end of his club) points well outside the ball-target line.
However, I wrongly stated in a previous e-mail message that I had never seen Ben Hogan with an off-plane clubshaft (that was too shallow) at P4, thereby requiring a clubshaft-steepening correction move. I have been studying a lot of Ben Hogan’s swings in recent days, and I have found a number of reasons why his clubshaft was too flat during the P4-P4.5 time period, and why he then needed to use a clubshaft-steepening move between P4.5 and P5.5 in order to get back on-plane.
Consider a few examples.
Example 1:
These capture images come from an early career golf swing when he used to over-swing, and also increasingly cup his left wrist, during his backswing action and that caused his clubshaft to cross-the-line at P4 (image 1). In that very sub-optimal P4 position, he was very off-plane and an imaginary line drawn from the butt end of his club is pointing away from the ball-target line.
Image 2 is at P4.5 and his clubshaft is still off-plane, but far less than it was at P4.
Image 3 is at P5, and his clubshaft is probably now on-plane. To get from image 2 to image 3, he obviously needed to use a clubshaft-steepening action (which requires a certain amount of left forearm supination.
Example 2:
Image 1 is at the P4 position. Note that his clubhead has drooped below the level of his hands, which means that his clubshaft is “laid-off” (presumably due to excessive left forearm pronation happening between P3.5 and P4). This “laid-off” scenario is less suboptimal than the previous example (example 1) because his clubshaft is not also crossing-the-line.
Image 2 shows the transition to his early downswing, and his clubshaft is still too flat and still off-plane.
Image 3 is at P4.8. It is clearly obvious that he must be using a clubshaft-steepening action to get his clubshaft from being off-plane to becoming on-plane by P5.
Example 3:
Image 1 is at the P4 position. Note that he has an intact LAFW and his clubshaft is pointing well left of the target. That’s an excellent P4 position, and his clubshaft is probably on-plane – and there is no evidence of a “laid-off” clubshaft.
However, note that he then flattens his clubshaft during his transition (image 2) and I suspect that it due to premature/excessive right arm adduction causing his right hand to pull the clubshaft groundwards, thereby moving his clubshaft off-plane to an overly shallow position. From that shallow/off-plane position, he is obviously going to have to use a clubshaft-steepening action (which requires left forearm supination) to get back on plane by P5 (image 3).
So, I can readily agree with you that Ben Hogan often had to perform a clubshaft-steepening action between P4.5 and P5 in order to correct for a number of swing faults that caused his clubshaft to be off-plane, and too horizontal, at the start of his transition to the downswing. However, he seemed to avoid those swing faults in his later career and you even demonstrated that he didn’t have to perform a clubshaft-steepening action in your video when you analysed one of his late career swing actions (starting at the 11:46 minute time point). You drew a number of sequential red lines that show that Ben Hogan was shallowing his clubshaft continuously between P4 and P5.5 and I personally believe that he was on-plane all the way between P4 and P5.5. No clubshaft-steepening action was required because he was continuously on-plane.
However, I disagree with your assessment of the Ben Hogan swing action, which starts at the 10:32 minute time point of your video. You make the statement that his clubshaft is obviously not on-plane – even though his clubshaft is angled upwards at the same steep angle as the 1965 swing that you start to analyse later at the 11:45 minute time point. I personally think that he was on-plane at P4 in that particular swing action and I do not believe that he needed to perform a clubshaft-steepening action in his P4.5-P5 time period to correct for an off-plane clubshaft. I do agree with you that his clubshaft in the swing action on the right side of the screen was very flat at P4.5 and I don’t need to look at your red lines to discern that fact. I can simply look at the angle of the clubshaft relative to the ground.
Here is Gary Woodland’s early downswing action.
Image 1 at the P4 position. I think that his clubshaft was on-plane at his end-backswing position, and I think that his clubshaft remained continuously on-plane while he progressively shallows his clubshaft (relative to his hand arc path) between P4 and P5.5 (image 4). I think that Ben Hogan was doing the same thing in many of his swing actions in his later career, and I believe that many modern-day pro golfers are also continuously maintaining an on-plane clubshaft during their clubshaft-shallowing action between P4 and P5.5.
Jeff.
I was very interested in the “iron Byron” robot swing, so I sent Jeff the next video:
Jeff enjoyed the video, and here was his response:
Commentary on Wayne’s analysis of Ben Hogan’s clubshaft shallowing move – Part 3
Wayne,
I enjoyed your comparison of Byron Nelson’s swing to the Golf Robot.
I am not familiar with Byron Nelson’s swing, and it certainly doesn’t look like an Iron Byron Machine. He takes the club very inside and off-plane and then loops it around to a flat position where the clubshaft is across-the-line and off-plane – as seen below.
I have drawn a white line on the ground that represents the ball-target line, and a red line at the level of the hands where that red line is parallel to the ball-target line.
One can clearly see that Byron Nelson’s clubshaft is pointing to the right-of-the-target.
Then, Byron Nelson needs to get his clubshaft on-plane by P5 by using a clubshaft-steepening move as you demonstrated in this next image.
To move his clubshaft from that red line to its present position requires a clubshaft-steepening move, (which probably requires a small degree of left forearm supination). It is interesting to see how much he adducts his right arm during that transition phase, which drops his right elbow groundwards much faster than his left elbow. From that P4.5 position, he can start the standard clubshaft-shallowing move (relative to his hand arc path) while remaining continuously on-plane. The clubshaft-steepening move is an extra move that many modern-day golfers (like Adam Scott and Gary Woodland and Justin Rose) do not need because they are on-plane at P4 and they can simply start the clubshaft-shallowing move (relative to their hand arc path) immediately at the start of the downswing.
It is amazing how similar Juston Rose’s swing looks compares to the Golf Robot’s swing. You mentioned that his clubshaft at P4 is slightly “laid-off” at P4 relative to that red line that you drew between the ball and the butt end of his club (compared to the Golf Robot), but I suspect that it is entirely due to camera angle.
I would therefore suggest that you perform the following experiment, which will likely yield useful information.
Look at this next image of Martin Hall demonstrating an on-plane golf swing using a Smartstick.
Image 1 is at the P4 position – where he has a shortened backswing action. One can clearly see that his clubshaft must be on-plane because the laserlight in situated on the ball-target line.
I presume that you have a Smartstick device. Then you would need to get a skilled golfer to mimic Justin Rose’s backswing action and get to the same P4 position. Place tape on the ground to represent the ball-target line and extend it back for 20+ feet so that you can see clearly that the laserlight is on the ball-target line at P4 thereby confirming an on-plane position. Then place a video camera on a tripod at hand level and take a DTL image from about 40 feet behind the golfer so that one can clearly see the laserlight on the ball-target line. Then take another DTL image at 30 feet, and then at 20 feet, and then at 10-12 feet from the golfer while the golfer constantly maintains his on-plane P4 position. You may need a wide-angle lens to get the golfer and his entire club in the image when you get very close to the golfer. Then repeat the same 4-image sequence with the camera at a higher position (eg, between the level of his nipples and his shoulders) and get another 4x DTL images at the same distances.
You should end up with 8 capture images of his on-plane P4 position. Then, measure the clubshaft angles in the 8 images and also extend a line down the longitudinal axis of the clubshaft to see where it hits the ground (or the lower border of the image). The results should enable one to see what effect camera distance from the golfer, and camera height, affect one’s visual perception of a 2-D image of an on-plane clubshaft at the P4 position.
Jeff.
We end with the following exchange:
Hey Jeff: I’m wondering you meant to write “Then, Byron Nelson needs to get his clubshaft on-plane by P5 by using a clubshaft steepening move ….”or if you meant to write clubshaft shallowing move. Nelson would only need a clubshaft steepening move if he over-flattened the shaft so that it was off-plane above the plane. Being off-plane by crossing the line requires a much greater shallowing move just to get the shaft back on plane. Hogan was never across the line so that when he made a significant shallowing move it took him from on plane to above the plane, which then required a steepening move which involved left forearm supination.
I really like the idea of the experiment to identify the effect of camera height, placement, and distance from the subject in 2-D video.
WD
And finally Jeffrey:
Wayne,
My mistake!
It is a clubshaft-shallowing move.
Jeff.
I think what this will show you apart from being quite educational is that everyone should be open to new ideas and that sharing is the way to expand knowledge.
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